Ahhhh, if we knew the answer to this question, all the sharks would migrate over to those games, right?   And so that implies that the market may well be pretty efficient, where just enough sharks are in each game to feed on the number of fish, and so me moving to one game or another might not even make a difference.

But let’s start with the hypothesis that it does make a difference.   So I’m going to see what there is on the different message boards and sources of info to help, and then ask people with a broad view if I can’t find enough informed opinions.

First I went searching for some threads on profitability.   I’ll put those after the jump.   I’ll probably also go ahead and ask in the DC coaching forum, since I’m trying to get this straight in my mind.

Stuff I’ve thought about profitability of different games, much of it documented in past posts, some of it more recent than anything I’ve written here:

  • Well, tournaments seem fishier than cash games, but higher-variance.   In general, bigger field = higher variance and higher EV.
  • I don’t think I could take the variance of huge MTTs as my bread and butter, although they’re fun and very profitable.   But maybe they should make up a part of my portfolio?
  • Also the smaller the tables for games, the more profitable (if you game-select effectively) and higher-variance.   In other words, heads-up > 6-max > full ring
  • Lately I’ve been proceeding under the assumption that the shared knowledge base on NLHE is pretty well saturated, that is, that there are so many videos and books and stuff and all the sharks have studied up to be able to exploit the still-considerable supply of fish.   But this area may be where efficient market theory kicks in, because it seems there are plenty of experts in non-HE games thinking the same thing!
  • So perhaps a broader way to express it is, the more a game rewards adaptability, and the less it rewards a basic strategy by rote, the more edge I can build up.   I’m intelligent and open-minded, so I expect games involving adaptability to play to my strengths.  (Example: I find multi-seat sats very profitable because so few people have a clue how ICM impacts play.  You could say the same thing about single-table S&Gs, except that they’re full of multi-tabling sharks.)

So taking all this into account — what should I learn to play?

I’m leaning toward heads-up sit-and-gos, since I’ve been told from multiple sources that they’re pretty profitable.   Deuces Cracked has a new series by bones going on called Two Men Enter. I’m wondering if it wouldn’t make sense to work my way up a bit starting at $1s and $2s, and then pretty quickly purchase a bit of coaching in those.

(So does that mean my dalliance with big-bet O8 was a short one?   Not sure.   I played a $24+2 tourney for the first time today and found the opponents dreadful; I certainly think there’s value in continuing to learn it too.   But with 2+2 regulars agonizing over the future of mid-stakes games on Full Tilt, although Stars is apparently still good, I’m not sure this is a great growth game.)

My eventual goal is to get back to a life situation where I can play brick-and-mortar poker, because I really do love it more than online.   But I need to build up the bankroll to a point where I’m comfortable playing games that I can beat for a significant amount.   Grinding $4/8 limit isn’t going to make any serious money, and I never felt like 15 minimum buy-ins was enough for NLHE.

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  • My luck has turned around now again in the token sats. Won 4 straight $75 token to make my small-sample ROI look good. Quite sure theyre $$$ #
  • Now I'm blowing off steam in the micro-stakes 8-game. Fun, but they need to add PLO8 and make a 9-game. #

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  • Just irritating how bad I run on the bubble in these multi-seat token sats. Shove AK, lose to TT. Shove QJs in 7th for 7x, KQo calls. Etc. #
  • The TT call is justifiable but I'm almost certain the KQ is awful. If I were the 5th stack sitting out instead of 7th, this would be great. #
  • He even spelled Jeffery right RT @kevindseal Jeffery Taylor is roughly 50x more athletic than anyone Vandy has when I got there in 2004 #
  • Can you no longer delete tweets? I'm always mixing up tweets for my sports vs. poker accounts. #

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I think betting with so many outs on the flop and turn is pretty standard — correct me if I’m wrong!

Now on the river — two flush draws and the backdoor low have all bricked, which to me suggests a great bluffing spot.   Do you agree?

By the way, my stack size is intentionally about half the max.

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Omaha Hi/Lo – 7 players – View hand 544333

The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Hero (BB): $12.00

UTG: $22.75

UTG+1: $13.65

MP: $3.85

CO: $6.00

BTN: $34.70

SB: $27.20

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with Q of spades K of diamonds 8 of spades J of clubs

UTG calls $0.25, 5 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.60) T of spades 4 of diamonds 9 of diamonds (2 players)

Hero bets $0.50, UTG calls $0.50
Turn: ($1.60) 3 of spades (2 players)
Hero bets $1, UTG calls $1

River: ($3.60) 3 of hearts (2 players)

Hero ????

I’ve been thinking a lot about continuation betting (cbetting), when it’s appropriate and not in BBO8, when to fire the second barrel, etc.    For now just a hand on the topic of two-barreling, another where I declined to cbet, and a couple of other miscellaneous ones. All results are available by clicking through to the Deuces Cracked converter. (If I forgot to include results, I try to add them in comments.)

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo – 6 players – View hand 542171
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BTN: $10.80
SB: $10.50
BB: $9.10
Hero (UTG): $9.75
MP: $6.65
CO: $9.05

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG with 7 of hearts A of spades 2 of clubs 4 of diamonds
Hero raises to $0.35, MP calls $0.35, 4 folds

Flop: ($0.85) K of spades A of clubs 6 of clubs (2 players)
Hero bets $0.50, MP calls $0.50

Turn: ($1.85) 8 of hearts (2 players)
Hero ???

I think I like a second barrel here, because my #2 low is probably good.  I don’t expect top pair-no kicker to win high if I get called, but I can certainly bet the river for thin value if a seven or an ace slides off.   If I don’t like the river, I’m probably check/calling and expecting to win half. It’s rare I’m terribly behind something like A239.


I know that as I move up in stakes and play against tougher players, cbetting 100% will be a leak.   But what textures of boards should I be cbetting, and when should I decline to bet the flop?    I hope to learn more on this topic from In a Nutshell. For now, my approach is to bet flops where I have some equity (flush draw, low draw, TPGK, overpair) and mostly give up on flops that don’t appear to have hit my raising range.

Of course some of these, especially the paired, highish flops, probably didn’t hit my opponents’ ranges for calling raises either.   So perhaps I should be cbetting some of those flops too. Here’s an example:

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo – 9 players – View hand 542801
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

MP2: $8.25
CO: $11.95
BTN: $4.75
SB: $13.30
BB: $12.70
UTG: $4.65
UTG+1: $9.70
UTG+2: $10.75
Hero (MP1): $19.30

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is MP1 with 2 of spades A of hearts J of diamonds 5 of clubs
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.35, 1 fold, CO calls $0.35, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.85) 6 of clubs K of hearts 6 of diamonds (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($0.85) J of hearts (2 players)
Hero ???

If this is the right spot to forego a cbet, then should I bet the turn now that I’ve paired? I suppose that I want to protect my 2nd pair-top kicker, since any queen, heart draw, or Broadway draw has outs to beat me. I don’t think I’m ever bluffing out a king. Maybe occasionally I’m getting value from a worse jack.


I’ve mentioned the issue of value betting the river thinly.   I post this hand just to ask: Do you think I should bet trips – top kicker on the river here?   I think so.

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo – 9 players – View hand 542188

The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

UTG: $9.45

UTG+1: $11.25

UTG+2: $5.55

MP1: $9.85

MP2: $9.85

CO: $19.25

BTN: $9.55

SB: $5.70

Hero (BB): $12.10

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with 8 of spades J of diamonds T of clubs 6 of diamonds

UTG calls $0.10, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls $0.10, 3 folds, BTN calls $0.10, SB calls $0.05, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.50) 3 of hearts T of hearts Q of spades (5 players)

SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($0.50) 2 of spades (5 players)

SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, BTN checks

River: ($0.50) T of diamonds (5 players)

SB checks, Hero ?????



Here’s just a miscellaneous hand where I think I messed up by taking a passive line.  Perhaps I should bet the flop, because I can’t be in terrible shape with a nut flush draw plus a Broadway gutshot.   If someone raises a flop bet I have to figure they have a made Broadway, which means I still have about 40% equity but I’ll wish I hadn’t bet.   So I think that was my reason for taking a check/call line here.   Another thought would be to check/raise the turn now that I have enough equity against a Broadway and the nut hand has changed; it’s going to be hard for him to 3-bet without a boat, in which case I’ll toss my draw at an underboat. Not sure what’s best here.

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo – 6 players – View hand 542178

The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

CO: $8.70

BTN: $10.45

SB: $8.80

Hero (BB): $10.50

UTG: $7.45

MP: $9.75

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with K of hearts T of hearts 9 of clubs 2 of clubs

UTG calls $0.10, MP calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.45) A of hearts J of hearts T of diamonds (4 players)

Hero checks, UTG bets $0.30, MP folds, CO folds, Hero calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.05) T of spades (2 players)

Hero checks, UTG bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40

River: ($1.85) 8 of diamonds (2 players)

Hero checks, UTG bets $0.90, Hero ???


  • Presently: 3 diff $15 FTOPS super sats (6m,6m turbo,FR), 90-plr $5.50 SNG on Stars, and one table of PLO8-10 on Stars. Jack of all trades… #
  • Should I be bet/folding a small flush here? I'm thinking I should, even though very exploitable http://www.thehandconverter.com/hands/542393 #
  • Tried a $3.30 rebuy NLH. Great value for $9. Headed to money, have avg. 44k, 667 of 4467 remaining. 1st pays 7.3k. #

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From a recent thread on 2+2 it sounds like there’s some demand for blogs on big-bet Omaha 8 games.  Since learning BBO8 is the latest adventure on the circuitous route that is my poker career, I figure I can try to write some stuff worth reading.

Since I’m documenting my learning process, I can’t exactly pass my thoughts off as some sort of expert commentary.   However, if people start commenting on hands that I post, I will start posting more hands here, especially since I feel like a freeloader if I post more than a few hands a week on 2+2.

For the moment, I’m playing mostly PLO25, NLO25, and PLO10 on PokerStars.   I have some rather controversial views on short-stacking to learn a big-bet game. I totally get the reasoning behind the advice that you should always buy in full because you’ll only learn to play 100 bb stacks by getting experience playing them.    I get the reasoning, but I somewhat disagree with it. I buy in full at PL10, but I also think there’s value to buying in short at higher stakes, watching how people play, and putting less at risk if you have particular postflop leaks that would make playing a deeper stack -EV. The goal is to double up, and learn to play deeper stacks from doubling up.  Effectively it’s using people’s preflop mistakes to subsidize your own postflop growing pains.  So I’m gradually working my “comfortable” buyin up at PL/NL25. It’s presently around $10, although I’ve seen enough to make me think it’s probably neutral or +EV to start buying in for the full $25 soon.

I’ll still be grinding some tournaments, mostly NLHE, as my “volume” game but I’m going to make a point to set aside enough time for big bet O8 so as to post some interesting hands. And to that end…. hands follow
after the jump.

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  • This hand will haunt me. Not sure if I can get away. http://bit.ly/aA0Ys8 Obv. if I know getting 6thd I would. Good news: why sats are easy #
  • Next time that happens hopefully I’ll be the one with the high hand. In time everyone benefits from an opponent that awful. Still sucks tho. #

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  • My 1st $26 LO8 sat – was worried competition might be tougher than $8.80s. Table is playing 51 VP$IP/16 PFR. Guess not. #
  • I’m making an epic comeback from very much on the ropes with about 20 left to chip leader with 5 left in an $8 sat to a $200 FTOPS O8 seat. #
  • I didn’t win the $216 FTOPS LO8 seat, only the 2nd place booby prize: $8. Like the lottery giving you a prize of a ticket, but better than 0 #

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  • Up to 18 $26 sat tokens. These token sats are like spinning straw into gold. Now just have to embrace the variance of a $26 tourney. #
  • Why are multi-seat sats profitable? Here’s why: http://bit.ly/ddzmG5 – terrible call by deep stack with 99 bvb to gamble it up. #
  • 6 places pay, top 5 pay equal. Sure, this time it hurt me, bad. But 5/6 of the time someone else is in that situ, I just sit + gain equity. #

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